Finesse shots versus full shots with wedges

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By Steve

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  • 24 Replies
  1. Steve

    Steve
    Carlsbad, CA

    Can anyone explain to me the different type of wedge designs that are needed to allow a wedge to be used for the finesse shots (chipping and pitching without side to side weight shift) versus the full shot with side to side weight shift etc? For chipping and pitching it's important to hit launch windows and control the release and bounce for chip and runs, soft landings, and lob shots but for the full shots the release and bounce is very different. Lots going on with wedges...

  2. Chris92009

    Chris92009
    Ohio

    Good question, so all grinds can be used in most conditions however certain grinds are designed to have the toe open or give more versatility. The D grind and M grinds are examples of this.

    The F grind is used for full shots primarily and to prevent excessive digging normally.

    IMHO
  3. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Chris92009 said:

    Good question, so all grinds can be used in most conditions however certain grinds are designed to have the toe open or give more versatility. The D grind and M grinds are examples of this.

    The F grind is used for full shots primarily and to prevent excessive digging normally.

    IMHO

    I found D grind bent 2* strong to be more versatile than M grind. I’ve favored K grind 2* strong as a SW since 2018 but decided to give D grind a whirl the past year.

    My winning combo for GW, SW, LW is 54-10S, 60—14K bent 2* strong and a PM Grind 64/10. This combo worked at the outset of COVID for a year and I used 58-14K (56*) for 2 additional years.

    I toyed with both a 58-04T and 60-04T. Didn’t care for 58-04T. Played 58-12D (bent to 56) and 60-04T as the “traditional” SW-LW combo for 6 months and 60-12D bent to 58 when using a carry bag. I’ve kept my 58–14K available.

    About a month ago I found a 60-04L in the used bin relatively cheap so I bent it to 58. It blew the 60-04T away. 2 weeks ago I put the 58—14K and it in the bag and they were like magic around the greens.

    I’d also had been doing upgrades to fairways and hybrids and was toying with a TSR2 7 wood and 18 hybrid plus a TS2 18 fairway. The TS2 and TSR2 fairways both hit very well but my last two rounds were rather successful with the 18 off the fairway. I took the 18 hybrid back and got a brand new SM9 60–14 and set it up for 58. My most recent round I played with it and it worked off a variety of lies. So over the weekend I returned the TSR2 7 wood plus took 58—14K and two 816H1 hybrids in for trade and found a new TSR1 23 fairway in the ladies’ bin (already had a Diamana 72 S set up for 41” length); $12 net cost.

    Here I am, back where I started in 2020 but with an almost zero bounce L grind as an enhancement to the K grind. Some things just come full circle. AND I can leave out the 23 hybrid and L grind on one course for an 11 club carry bag.
  4. Brock L

    Brock L
    Fort Myers, FL

    Talk about overcomplicating things. Sometimes it's easier to just practice basic technique.
  5. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Chris92009 said:

    Good question, so all grinds can be used in most conditions however certain grinds are designed to have the toe open or give more versatility. The D grind and M grinds are examples of this.

    The F grind is used for full shots primarily and to prevent excessive digging normally.

    IMHO

    Here it almost June. What one sees in my bag is pretty much a lock. Lofts of 46-52-58-64 have been working since 2020. Once in awhile played 48-56-64. About a couple weeks ago, the repair/fitter person at a local golf shop talked me into a 58-06K Wedgeworks Low Bounce K. It has been proving itself to work well in a wide variety of conditions, not to mention I nearly holed out a couple shots from deep bunkers in my last couple rounds. Golf Mart also has a 90 day playability guarantee so I tried a 56-12D bent to 54 and ended up going back to using 54-10S bent to 52.

    The past year was a bit of a science project. Wanted to see what all the hype was, concerning the T grind wedges. Very good on tight lies and flop shots but limited otherwise. Also alternated between D and K grind for sand. About even but K grind works better off hard lies and D grind is better for flop shots.
  6. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Steve said:

    Can anyone explain to me the different type of wedge designs that are needed to allow a wedge to be used for the finesse shots (chipping and pitching without side to side weight shift) versus the full shot with side to side weight shift etc? For chipping and pitching it's important to hit launch windows and control the release and bounce for chip and runs, soft landings, and lob shots but for the full shots the release and bounce is very different. Lots going on with wedges...

    My two cents is not to make wedge play complicated. Same basic swing motion. Choke down and vary backswing length for distance. Open stance gets the ball in the air.

    My PW is a 48-10F bent to 46.
    GW is 54-10S bent to 52.
    SW is 58*; 58-14K and 60-04L (bent to
    58*)
    LW is “Phil” 64/10.

    I use the PW & GW for both square stance full swing and pitch shots.

    I rarely use a square stance with 58 and 64.
  7. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Steve said:

    Can anyone explain to me the different type of wedge designs that are needed to allow a wedge to be used for the finesse shots (chipping and pitching without side to side weight shift) versus the full shot with side to side weight shift etc? For chipping and pitching it's important to hit launch windows and control the release and bounce for chip and runs, soft landings, and lob shots but for the full shots the release and bounce is very different. Lots going on with wedges...

    Made it simple:

    48-10F bent to 46
    56-12D bent to 54
    58-06K stock
    Phil 64.

    If I go to Torrey, replace the 56-12D with 54-10S and add 58-12D (both stock).
  8. BECK0N

    BECK0N
    New Brighton, MN

    What’s the reason for having a wedge bent to another loft? Is the loft-grind combo just not available for the loft you want?
  9. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    BECK0N said:

    What’s the reason for having a wedge bent to another loft? Is the loft-grind combo just not available for the loft you want?

    Bounce. And what works and what one feels comfortable with. I find it easier to swing a 58* wedge bent to 56 vs a bone stock 56.

    Whenever you bend a wedge 2* strong it also decreases the bounce by 2*.

    My 64* wedge and 58-06K are bone stock. .

    There is no rule in Golf that says you have to play 52-56-60 and use F, M and S grind. Nor do you have to use a 45" driver.

    My wedge gapping is 46-52-58-64. When you bend a 48-10 to 46 it is 46-08. A 54-10S bent to 52 is 52-08S. A 54-10S bent to 52 works better on long bunker shots vs a 52-08F.

    I've been playing a K-grind bent 2* strong since about 2018. For a 3 wedge setup it was 58-14K bent to 56 and for 4 wedges 60-14K bent to 58. I was able to play a 12* bounce K grind in varying conditions from soft sand to hard pan. I recently got talked into buying a 58-06K low bounce and it actually works in a wide variety of conditions. I can get out of soft bunkers just as easily as hard bunkers.

    The T grind was an experiment to see what all the hype is about. I decided to give D grind a try too. I dumped M grind a long time ago.

    I have a 58-12D bent to 56 when I want to play a "Sunday bag"; I replace the 46 and 52 lofts with a T100S 48 wedge. I also keep it handy otherwise since I'm still getting used to low bounce K grind.

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  10. Barry M

    Barry M
    Reno, NV

    Steve said:

    Can anyone explain to me the different type of wedge designs that are needed to allow a wedge to be used for the finesse shots (chipping and pitching without side to side weight shift) versus the full shot with side to side weight shift etc? For chipping and pitching it's important to hit launch windows and control the release and bounce for chip and runs, soft landings, and lob shots but for the full shots the release and bounce is very different. Lots going on with wedges...

    In a nutshell, no - I can't explain it. It totally confuses me. I think they should simplify it by designating them S, M, T, W, or F so I know what day of the week which one works better for me. I end up spending entirely too much money on wedges, and my wife thinks it's ludicrous that I leave them all around the house. I will say that the D's seem to be my best all around performers.
  11. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Steve said:

    Can anyone explain to me the different type of wedge designs that are needed to allow a wedge to be used for the finesse shots (chipping and pitching without side to side weight shift) versus the full shot with side to side weight shift etc? For chipping and pitching it's important to hit launch windows and control the release and bounce for chip and runs, soft landings, and lob shots but for the full shots the release and bounce is very different. Lots going on with wedges...

    One thing in my game is that I use my 46 (48-10F bent strong)for full swings, pitch shots and bump & run (where a lot of roll is needed on the green). I use 52 (54-10S) for most pitch shots and chipping; it also works well for long bunker shots and I can use it in a pinch for a full swing. I rarely take a full swing with the D and K grind wedges. I sometimes use my 9 iron for pitch shots.
  12. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    The 58-06K is very versatile. All my wedges from GW to 64 are stock loft.
  13. Edward K

    Edward K
    Wesley Chapel, FL

    Military
    Better players practice, play golf, and adjust to the basic specs of the clubs they were "fit" for. No offense to anyone, but constant tweaking loft/lie on the shorter clubs will require 2-3 times more practice to groove a consistent flight/spin. To each his own, seems to me like a lot of extra work. My Tour buddies are the exactly the opposite, they get fit, play what the Titleist rep hands them, go practice. See you in 6 months with new irons, every 60 days with new wedges.
  14. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Edward K said:

    Better players practice, play golf, and adjust to the basic specs of the clubs they were "fit" for. No offense to anyone, but constant tweaking loft/lie on the shorter clubs will require 2-3 times more practice to groove a consistent flight/spin. To each his own, seems to me like a lot of extra work. My Tour buddies are the exactly the opposite, they get fit, play what the Titleist rep hands them, go practice. See you in 6 months with new irons, every 60 days with new wedges.

    I know exactly what works with my wedges. I break 80 periodically. I play my irons 1.5* upright and the PW. For me, 46-10F or 48-10F bent 2* strong is a good bounce. Titleist went to 14* on K grind with SM7; a K grind bent 2*strong has worked for 6 years now. I also have my distances dialed in on just about every wedge loft. I’m playing bone stock on the 50-08F, 58-06K and 64.

    There’s no rule in Golf that states one has to carry 10.5-15-19 for driver and fairways, 3-4H, 5-P, 52-56-60 wedges. What’s important is what works. If I go to Torrey, bring a 58-14D and a 60-04L/T. On one course I play what’s shown in the thumbnail. The pic shows a 32H pin high on 17 at Riverwalk. If I go to a certain executive course I take out the 18 fairway and throw in a 15 and 20 (TSR2 and TSR1).
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  15. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Edward K said:

    Better players practice, play golf, and adjust to the basic specs of the clubs they were "fit" for. No offense to anyone, but constant tweaking loft/lie on the shorter clubs will require 2-3 times more practice to groove a consistent flight/spin. To each his own, seems to me like a lot of extra work. My Tour buddies are the exactly the opposite, they get fit, play what the Titleist rep hands them, go practice. See you in 6 months with new irons, every 60 days with new wedges.

    The reason I take a D or K grind and bend them 2* strong is because they work in a wide variety of conditions from soft sand to hard-pan. For any wedge I hit a full swing with (PW or GW), 8* bounce works. Also any club 8 iron or below is a potential “wedge”. It also is a bit ludicrous carrying 44-48-52-56-60 and 64. Some here should try playing a regulation golf course with 10 clubs. I played Torrey Pines in 2018 with a driver, 5 wood, 25H, 6-8-9 irons 50-58-64 and was happy to shoot 95 (my normal score at that time was 85 on most courses). 8* gaps between wedges is not unmanageable; there’s this wonderful thing in distance control called “choking down” and it even works with a 7W or 27H.

    And I practice my short game 2-3 times per week either at a local park or at the military base.

    My thumbnail is my basic “carry bag.” There is also a local exec course that has par 3s that range from 113 yards to 210 so I’ll take out the 18 fairway and put in 15 and 20 fairways and use a pull cart. If I go to Torrey, will throw a D grind in the bag.
  16. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Edward K said:

    Better players practice, play golf, and adjust to the basic specs of the clubs they were "fit" for. No offense to anyone, but constant tweaking loft/lie on the shorter clubs will require 2-3 times more practice to groove a consistent flight/spin. To each his own, seems to me like a lot of extra work. My Tour buddies are the exactly the opposite, they get fit, play what the Titleist rep hands them, go practice. See you in 6 months with new irons, every 60 days with new wedges.

    And I might add that I’ve had a rather vicious short game since about 2007. It made up for ball striking before. A lot out there do have rather atrocious short games and I see a number that try to get “fancy” by flipping their hands on the follow-through. Dave Pelz had some instructional videos on distance control for wedges (besides swing length and choking down). Last year was a bit of an experiment because I wanted to see what the hype was about T grind and D grind. Experience has dictated that a 58 lob wedge bent to 56 swings better than a standard 56 SW.

    Actually tinkering with wedge setups is how one gets better. Strong 9 iron 46-52-58-64 has worked. So has standard 9 iron 48-56-64. So has 44-50-58-64. What’s constant is the sand wedge is K grind 12*. PW and GW is 8* bounce.

    I was compelled to see what all the hype was about T grind plus had to try out D grind and L grind last year. They have limitations. K grind is a bit better than D grind off firm lies and even in soft lies. T grind and L grind are great off hard lies and rather firm sand.

    The 58-06K does just about everything and actually is even on soft lies vs D and regular K plus it just as easily picks the ball like L or T; my local fitter sold me on it about 2 months ago. The SM6 K grind (I played a 60-12K bent to 58 at Torrey Pines in 2018) is much more versatile vs the SM7 and beyond.

    I carried 11 clubs the past couple rounds and shot 38 on the back 9 at Riverwalk (I usually play a quick 8 every week and my normal score is 42). At Oaks North (an exec course that is rather hilly) I bring a full bag since the par 3s range fron 112 yards to 210. 64 is my best for 18 (par 60).
  17. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Edward K said:

    Better players practice, play golf, and adjust to the basic specs of the clubs they were "fit" for. No offense to anyone, but constant tweaking loft/lie on the shorter clubs will require 2-3 times more practice to groove a consistent flight/spin. To each his own, seems to me like a lot of extra work. My Tour buddies are the exactly the opposite, they get fit, play what the Titleist rep hands them, go practice. See you in 6 months with new irons, every 60 days with new wedges.

    My updated thumbnail shows it “tightened up”. The combo of “56-10D” (58-12D strong) and 60-04T worked before. If I want to throw the bag on my shoulder on some courses, I use the 58-06K vice 56-60.

    For the most part, for 3 years, been playing 46-52-58-64. Just decided to “toy around” last year with D and T grind. I played 44-50-58-64 between 2018-2020. For a little bit in 2021 played 695MB 9 iron, 48-56-64.

    The D grind gets 10 more yards on a full swing vs Lo-K. About equal on pitching and soft bunkers. D grind is better on flop shots.

    Post Image
  18. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Edward K said:

    Better players practice, play golf, and adjust to the basic specs of the clubs they were "fit" for. No offense to anyone, but constant tweaking loft/lie on the shorter clubs will require 2-3 times more practice to groove a consistent flight/spin. To each his own, seems to me like a lot of extra work. My Tour buddies are the exactly the opposite, they get fit, play what the Titleist rep hands them, go practice. See you in 6 months with new irons, every 60 days with new wedges.

    “quick 9” typo.
  19. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Edward K said:

    Better players practice, play golf, and adjust to the basic specs of the clubs they were "fit" for. No offense to anyone, but constant tweaking loft/lie on the shorter clubs will require 2-3 times more practice to groove a consistent flight/spin. To each his own, seems to me like a lot of extra work. My Tour buddies are the exactly the opposite, they get fit, play what the Titleist rep hands them, go practice. See you in 6 months with new irons, every 60 days with new wedges.

    I rarely change irons

    I played a set of 695 (CB 6 iron and MB 7-P) between Feb 2020 and the same time last year. My wedge setup started with 58-14K (56*) and “Phil 64”. Since 2021 had been playing 52 (54-10s bent strong) and 58 (60-14K bent strong). At the beginning of 2023, simplified my iron setup to 716CB 7 iron (32*) and 716MB 8 iron (39*). In place of the 9 iron, used an SM9 48-10F bent to 46*.

    Changing irons every 6 months? I played a set of X31 irons from 1979-2007 (didn’t play any golf at all between 2003-2007; working on my Masters’ degree plus had a back injury). Last year I gave my son a set of Lynx Black Cat 5-P that I used in 2008. Played a set 7-SW Snake Eyes 3 irons 2008-2011. Played AP1 between 2012-2015. I played my Dad’s Apex irons 7-F until 2018 and started morphing AP2 6-8 irons. I just did an upgrade to TSR1 20 and 23 fairways and 26H. I’ve had the 816H1 27 since 2019 and it’s back in (frankly it is easier to hit vs the TSR1 hybrid).

    Wedges every 60 days? I don’t think so.
    I just upgraded to SM10 after my local fitter talked me into a 58 low bounce K. I’m playing lofts of 44-50-56 (58-12D bent strong)-60-64. If I want to carry the bag I use the 58-06K or an SM6 60-12K (58*).

    Yes I did experiment with D and T grinds last year. Golf Mart has this wonderful thing called a “90 day playability guarantee” that is good for both used and new clubs.

    8* bounce for PW-GW. 10-12* for SW. I’ve had the “Phil 64” since 2018.

    The first attached pic is spares.

    I just recently added a 915F 18 (I used one with a Bassara shaft at Torrey Pines in 2018; this one I just bought the head and installed a Diamana 72 x5ct that I’ve had) and a G10 32H (I used a set with steel shafts between 2008-2010). Both worked very well last round. Proof is in the 2nd pic (32H shot on a par 3).
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  20. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    I find it hard to part with the low bounce K. I’ve done good awhile ago with D and T grind.


  21. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Lou G said:

    I find it hard to part with the low bounce K. I’ve done good awhile ago with D and T grind.


    For what it’s worth …… I was out pitching and hitting full swings this AM. In the attached image are the clubs that hit the best. I returned the 60-04T and got a 50–12F (that I set to 48* and my previously fit lie angle of 66*). First thing is the 58-06K has been doing very well on the course for 3 months now so it would be silly to pull it. What was goofy yesterday morning is the 58-12D (56*) was beating the 50-08F just barely on the course. Then the 50-12F beat the 50-08F by 10 yards while I was practicing. This morning the 50-12F beat the 46-10F (at 44*) by 5 yards pretty consistent. I had the proper gap between the -12F and 9 iron (T100S).

    I’ve actually played pretty well with a wedge setup of 48-56-64 (with a standard 9 iron), 46-52-58-64 (with 32-39 on the 7-8 irons). I played 44-50-58-64 recently with T-MB 8 iron and shot under 40 for 9 holes twice.
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  22. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    I recently did an upgrade to my bag, to summarize. Since 2019, my basic fairway-hybrid setup has been 910F 21 and 816H1 27 (alternating with a 910H 27). Been gaming 695MB 7-P (34-38-42-48) between 2020-2023. Simplified iron setup to 716CB 7 iron (32*) and 716MB 8 iron (39*) Jan last year.

    If I buy any clubs, I go to Golf Mart. Not one who is going to spend $400 on the latest driver or $350 a pop for fairways and hybrids. And it is a waste of money to spend over $1000 on a set of irons since I use only the 7-9 irons. Wedges I either buy demos or new. They have a 90 day playability guarantee that applies to both new and used clubs.

    For fitting, I go to a local “mom and pop” store called Fairway Golf (since 2008) The fitter/repair persons have been pretty knowledgeable.

    Plus one thing I did in 2008 was construct a set of irons (Snake Eyes) 5-SW. I played at least 8-SW for 3 years (png G10 28 and 32 for 2 years). I learned a thing or two about fitting and been playing 1* upright until 2 years ago. Been playing 2* upright and 1/2” short on the irons since 2020 (did a lie board adjustment).

    The Hogan bag was left behind in 2015 when my dad passed away. I “cut my teeth” on his Apex irons (using the 7-F; basically played a Vokey 58 and a Callie 64) and worked in AP2 6-8 irons till Torrey Pines. At the time I played Torrey in 2018, my setup was SM6 50-08F, 60-12K (58*) and the Phil 64. One thing I did do in 2018 was replace the 9 iron with an SM7 46-10 bent to 44. My Vokey setup for about the first year of COVID was 50-08F (48*), 58-14K (56*) and played a Wedgeworks 64W until 2022 (I kept the Phil and put it back in). I went to 52-58 (54-10S and 60–14K both 2* strong) in 2021. I changed my PW to 46* (48-10F bent 2* strong). I also tinkered with D grind and T grind last year and did OK.

    I got talked into trying out low bounce K over 3 months ago. Been using it with good results. Just did a complete wedge re-vamp so my setup is 46-10F (44*), 50-08F, 58-12D (56*), 56-08K, 60-04T and the Phil. I also have an SM6 60-12K (58*) as a reserve. I did some extensive practice with the D, T and both K grinds (been playing low bounce K for 3 months now). The D grind and K grinds are pretty much even for soft lies but the former has the edge on full swings by 10 yards. The T grind is a no brainer for hard-pan lies; however, low K can work and has the edge on full swings.

    There are some times where I can go to one of my home courses and play a quick 9 by myself (they have an early bird rate on the back 9).

    The last round I played 11 clubs (low K as SW). A couple rounds ago played the SM6 at an exec course I play once a month. I just got the D and T grinds and working them back in.

    I do have my distances nailed on every loft in the Vokey spectrum. My short game (especially bunker play) has been a strong point since 2007. I’m almost 67 so short game is critical. I save a couple strokes every 9 on “sneaky pars” and the occasional “Sandy Andy”.
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  23. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Closing…. what is on my thumbnail is what I’m moving forward with. 48-56-64 (50–12F, 58-12D and Phil 64) with a 58-06K. The 50-12F went head to head in practice with both a 46-10F and 50-08F. I just upgraded to SM10. 48-56-64 worked in the past (50-08F, 58-14K, Phil 64) and, until the time I got the 56-08K, been playing 46-52-58-64 (48-10F, 54-10S, 60-14K and Phil 64) for 3 years.
  24. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    Lou G said:

    Closing…. what is on my thumbnail is what I’m moving forward with. 48-56-64 (50–12F, 58-12D and Phil 64) with a 58-06K. The 50-12F went head to head in practice with both a 46-10F and 50-08F. I just upgraded to SM10. 48-56-64 worked in the past (50-08F, 58-14K, Phil 64) and, until the time I got the 56-08K, been playing 46-52-58-64 (48-10F, 54-10S, 60-14K and Phil 64) for 3 years.

    Well …. here’s what’s transpired in the past 3 days.

    I acquired a 60-06K over the weekend and it was a no brainer vs 60-04T. When you hole a shot out immediately at the practice green from a crappy lie and then place two in a row within 3 feet from a rather hard practice bunker.

    34H beat T-MB and G10-32 hands down hitting at the range.

    Had enough trade in with my old Scottie, the T-MB and a 915F 18 fairway to get an SM10 54-10S (I set it up for how I’ve been playing one for the past 3 years). Have the proper distance gap between it and the 58-12D (set up at 56*).

    The 46-10F and 50-12F (48*) were about equal on full swings. Initially had a bit of a pull on pitch shots with the 50 but flattening the lie angle to 65.5 fixed that. The distance gap on pitch shots was about 5 yards.

    My 716MB 8 iron vs T100S 9 iron (both 40*) was also a no brainer. The former picks the ball better and pitches better.

    I also found a couple 695MB heads (8-9 irons) in pristine shape. I’m doing a head change on the 9 iron and building up an 8 iron with S200 when they arrive. With 38-42 they would be a good match for the 50-12F.

    What’s been working the past year and a half is the MB 8 iron, 46-52 (48-10F and 54-10S), K grind SW and “Phil 64”. Just upgraded to SM10 with stock loft on 46-10F.
  25. Lou G

    Lou G
    San Diego, CA

    My thumbnail “says it all” 716MB 8 iron 40*.
    Wedge lofts 44-48-52-56-60-64. Three low bounce (44-52-60) and 3 high bounce (48-56-64).

    A couple fixes: lie angle on 46-10F (44*) and 65.5 on the 50-12F (48*). 50-12F works much better than 50-08F.

    58-06K and SM6 60-12K (58*) in reserve.

    Got a couple pristine 695MB heads that should be in the mailbox today. Going to see the “mad scientist” at Fairway Golf later today. At this point the 8 iron and 46-10F swing exactly the same but with a difference of 1/4”. The 9 iron is a simple head swap with the T100S head (the 716MB 8 iron beat the T100 hands down in a shootout). I’m building the 8 iron same length and lie as the 716MB.

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